Proposal to improve the current low rank's quality.

Even though this is a "complain" thread, since it is not directed to mods I guess it doesn't go to off-topic.

Low ranks, specially the newest rank 5, are getting kicked a lot from games in our Main Lobby. The reason, I think, is because they don't have the skill required to play with the middle ranks 7 and upper. Even to rank 6 is still hard to get a spot like Romania in WW1, I already complained about that.

I'd assume there's a gasp between the rank 7's knowledge and the rank 5's knowledge, that the rank 5 should already know. Here are some of the knowledge I would expect from a rank 5, but that doesn't happen:

*) Moving all the troops out of a city(overstacking)- specially when they're being useless there.
*) Walls, at the moment I've see just "some" of them wall their cap, almost no one wall other city or borders.
*) Why his troops doesn't move - basic TB knowledge.
*) How to look for the special units in one map, and their stats. This so they avoid suicide on trenches.

The main topic of this thread is to increment the low rank's skill, or just restrict them from your games if you guys want that. If we agree to something, I would expect it to know all that I've pointed above. Some of the ideas:


*) Making Main room rank 6+, beginner rank 5-. This would fix the problem at low time, but at the long run I dunno.
*) Giving them the knowledge. Yes, a lot of tutorial-type of suggestions had been suggested.
*) Reconfiguration of the current SP system to make bigger SP gasps, and optionally reconfiguration of the upgrades. This is the solution I've put months of effort on, but for some reason, it is still there, never got debated or approved or anything. Can be found HERE
*) Making SP harder to get. Some people might be opposite to this, but think about this: The more you play, the more you learn. If we make SP 2x harder to get, then they would require 2x the time to get up to rank 5 (since r4's doesn't play in main, anyway). If no 2x then we can make the SP someone's earn in game up to 0.8x or 0.75x.

Also:

נכתב על ידי Eagle, 13.08.2015 at 15:45

Why just not make a room for players from r5-r7 with the ability to join main room and play games there?

What do you guys think about it...

You know from what I know of this (I even made a thread about it) is that every person who is new to AW and plays something regulary they become good at it.
Examples for this are Scenario players in ww2, or 3v3 players in europe+.

I can only speak for the 3v3 players since I am a part of that community. I have noticed that most of the 3v3 players from 2013/2014 (which I call ''new era'') really dont like a 3v3 without the standard picks which are Germany/uk/turkey/ukraine/italy/spain/france. And I think the reason for that is because they are not familiar with picks like sweden/rnw/turkey&ukraine combos/ germany & uk combos/ austria/greece/russia central etc. So the not common picks, and I wasn't surprised when most of those people really didnt know what to do and lost the game to a ''noob'' country, as they call it.

So what i can say about this is if you give the lowranks the chance to play something they want and like, doesn't matter in what scenario, they will improve some day and become better, even at lower ranks. Ofcourse the upgrades are a part of those things too, but you really dont need upgrades to have skills. I've seen enough of lowranks beating higherranks without the upgrades you think they need to win...

There is no need to fix AW or the rules in AW. It is the community not the game. Like I made cclear in a previous thread, if they ask for a game and you arent doing something make them a game once in a while with their own ranklimits, you will be shocked if you see how they play on it. Ofcourse some hardcore scenario players will comment now '' they will leave and ruin the game'' You have these kind of persons everywhere. Maybe they gtg in reallife or their internet shuts down. You'll never know.

Tldr neither of the posts. but well said, keep it up

edit: who is this khal

> sees waffel and clovis
> is genuinely too scared to post

also hi khal

Why just not make a room for players from r5-r7 with the ability to join main room and play games there? To be honest there is no gap between ranks 4-6, and just a little one from r6 - r7. Basically if he doesnt play competitively he cant even get better, but only by time he will learn to stack more, attack or defend better, just be more strategical. Just compare any competitive player r8 to a r8 player that plays world 50k or rp. If no one shows them or teaches them, they cant improve that much

I think we(high ranks/experienced players) should begin to train low ranks, maybe even allow them into our games as well(no more rank limit when low ranks want to play and learn), that would mean admins would have to remove the rank limit in main room to rank 1. The rank limit is pointless in main room any way, we can easily set a rank limit in our games.

Over all I think it would benefit our community a lot, we would have more competitive players and more competitive clans.. but we all need to work together.

נכתב על ידי theFuehrer, 13.08.2015 at 16:40

I think we(high ranks/experienced players) should begin to train low ranks, maybe even allow them into our games as well(no more rank limit when low ranks want to play and learn), that would mean admins would have to remove the rank limit in main room to rank 1. The rank limit is pointless in main room any way, we can easily set a rank limit in our games.

Over all I think it would benefit our community a lot, we would have more competitive players and more competitive clans.. but we all need to work together.

You can use links to invite low rank players( provided that they really want to be trained), as that rids you of the need to remove the rank limit.


The rank limit isn't pointless:

• It is convenient that you can divide the players by rank, therefore a rank 13 wouldn't be killing a rank 1.
  
• Would you want inexperienced, low rank players to host in the Main Lobby? Don't they mostly leave, aye?
  
• What would you do if you saw a low rank come into your game? You'd kick them.
  

Making Main room rank 6+, beginner rank 5-. This would fix the problem at low time, but at the long run I dunno.

If you make the main room 6+ and the beginner 5+, then you will end up having ranks 5 and below all of the same level, as they will simply play with same people over and over, never getting the chance of spicing it up a little.

However, in the main room you'd have rank 6s getting kicked out of games, just as they do now.

_______________________________________________________________________
Giving them the knowledge. Yes, a lot of tutorial-type of suggestions had been suggested.

Anyone, even unregistered users, is free to access the forum. The forum contains a wealth of knowledge about atWar. You don't have to be in a particular clan to be able to acquire skill; there's already a lot to learn from the public forums.

___________________________________________________________________
Making SP harder to get. Some people might be opposite to this, but think about this:
The more you play, the more you learn. If we make SP 2x harder to get, then they would require 2x the time to get up to rank 5 (since r4's doesn't play in main, anyway). If no 2x then we can make the SP someone's earn in game up to 0.8x or 0.75x.

Not necessarily. Some 'low-ranks' actually know a lot about this game. For example, because they browsed the forums and/ or sought help from more skilled players.
The fact that the player is of low rank doesn't determine his/ her knowledge of the game. These people will get kicked, regardless of their skills and/ or knowledge.

Having said that, if you lengthen the time a player needs to play - in order to level up to a higher rank, you are ensuring he/ she will never be considered skilled, as his/ her rank will take longer to level up, hence the lack of being considered skilled( rank is considered an indicator of skill, yet that's largely false.)

Clovis, the reason rank 5-6 is so horrible is because you lack most of the essential infantry upgrades. I would consider myself a pretty good player when I was R5 and R6, but I was severely handicapped by not having those upgrades. As soon as I got them, things got significantly easier. I even had to spend 500 Protocoins to reset my upgrades to get faster inf sooner before I went insane.
A R5 or R6 who gets the wrong upgrade will suffer a long time before being able to bridge the upgrade handicap.

No

What if they made upgrades easier for low ranks to get? If they get most basic 3v3 upgrades i see no reason for them to be kicked

נכתב על ידי Zenith, 13.08.2015 at 18:55

Personally, I like playing the higher ranks because it gives me the ability to learn. They say: You learn from your mistakes. However, I don't make many mistakes in the beginners lobby. I need to fight the experienced players to learn.

I was like you once....

How about low rank actually stay in game then leave in turn 1 on near turn 5

Thanks everybody for their inputs. I will make a poll of this after getting some more ideas.

נכתב על ידי Waffel, 13.08.2015 at 09:31

So what i can say about this is if you give the lowranks the chance to play something they want and like, doesn't matter in what scenario,

Yup I though about that, but as many other players told me in that time, sometimes you just want to play with people from your level. You don't have time nor want a game to fair because a low rank lost too early, speaking from scenario side. I guess I've understand it after a time...

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נכתב על ידי Eagle, 13.08.2015 at 15:45

Why just not make a room for players from r5-r7 with the ability to join main room and play games there?

Was looking for this before, some players thinks that we shouldn't divide the Database more than it actually is, however I've added the suggestion to the original thread.

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נכתב על ידי theFuehrer, 13.08.2015 at 16:40

I think we(high ranks/experienced players) should begin to train low ranks,

Agree, but we cannot force anyone to do anything, beside, there had been given many good arguments against (For example, sometimes you train someone and he just leave, waste of time).

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נכתב על ידי e Mare, 13.08.2015 at 17:59

Making Main room rank 6+, beginner rank 5-. This would fix the problem at low time, but at the long run I dunno.

If you make the main room 6+ and the beginner 5+, then you will end up having ranks 5 and below all of the same level, as they will simply play with same people over and over, never getting the chance of spicing it up a little.

However, in the main room you'd have rank 6s getting kicked out of games, just as they do now.

Losing against high ranks is a good way to learn, but specially in scenario you will often find that:

1) They will get kicked before game start.
2) If they don't, high ranks will most likely leave, since they think low ranks ruin the game for one side (this is, from a scenario's sideview).
3) There is also a (small) chance of they getting frustrated rather than learning, sometimes the gasp of skill is this high (I've see this happening with TB's a lot in common rank 7's).

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נכתב על ידי e Mare, 13.08.2015 at 17:59

Giving them the knowledge. Yes, a lot of tutorial-type of suggestions had been suggested.

Anyone, even unregistered users, is free to access the forum. The forum contains a wealth of knowledge about atWar. You don't have to be in a particular clan to be able to acquire skill; there's already a lot to learn from the public forums.

*If they even get to know that a forum exist.

But yes I agree the forum have a lot of knowledge, everything is about finding the right information. But an interactive tutorial would make this a lot faster (Something that the 'milennians' loves, Fast things!). It could also be a tutorial in-game that guides you through the forum...

I'll imagine a searcher in the game & strategy forum of this type: 'What are you looking for?' then just 4 classification: Walls, expansions, Tips & Tricks and others. Forums can be marked to be in either one or other classification, and poof you find (almost) exactly the topic you wanted to search for! Even future classifications can be added.

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נכתב על ידי e Mare, 13.08.2015 at 17:59

Making SP harder to get. Some people might be opposite to this, but think about this:
The more you play, the more you learn. If we make SP 2x harder to get, then they would require 2x the time to get up to rank 5 (since r4's doesn't play in main, anyway). If no 2x then we can make the SP someone's earn in game up to 0.8x or 0.75x.

Not necessarily. Some 'low-ranks' actually know a lot about this game. For example, because they browsed the forums and/ or sought help from more skilled players.
The fact that the player is of low rank doesn't determine his/ her knowledge of the game. These people will get kicked, regardless of their skills and/ or knowledge.

Having said that, if you lengthen the time a player needs to play - in order to level up to a higher rank, you are ensuring he/ she will never be considered skilled, as his/ her rank will take longer to level up, hence the lack of being considered skilled( rank is considered an indicator of skill, yet that's largely false.)

Full agree, though you learn a lot when playing, specially when you're low rank. There's certainly a difference between a player with 10 games and a new player.

I would say rank matter to low ranks... at least, it is less flawed than for rank 7 and upper.

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נכתב על ידי Witch-Doctor, 13.08.2015 at 18:22

Clovis, the reason rank 5-6 is so horrible is because you lack most of the essential infantry upgrades.

Yup, I though about that. Though is already in the original thread.

נכתב על ידי Htin, 13.08.2015 at 19:26

How about low rank actually stay in game then leave in turn 1 on near turn 5

5 minute a turn scenarios when you are a small country are not what i consider fun, i can understand why people would leave. Most people would leave regardless of rank in that situation

נכתב על ידי clovis1122, 13.08.2015 at 19:43

*If they even get to know that a forum exist.

But yes I agree the forum have a lot of knowledge, everything is about finding the right information. But an interactive tutorial would make this a lot faster (Something that the 'milennians' loves, Fast things!). It could also be a tutorial in-game that guides you through the forum...

I'll imagine a searcher in the game & strategy forum of this type: 'What are you looking for?' then just 4 classification: Walls, expansions, Tips & Tricks and others. Forums can be marked to be in either one or other classification, and poof you find (almost) exactly the topic you wanted to search for! Even future classifications can be added.

Well, for that the game could show occasional in-game pop-ups, like "Hey, did you know there was a forum( click me)? You can find all sorts of useful information - tricks and tips - there."

Funtime already suggested this:
http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=19506

______________________________________

נכתב על ידי clovis1122, 13.08.2015 at 19:43

Full agree, though you learn a lot when playing, specially when you're low rank. There's certainly a difference between a player with 10 games and a new player.

I would say rank matter to low ranks... at least, it is less flawed than for rank 7 and upper.

Not necessarily. It took me a while( !) to figure out how to use that dreadful air transport. I kept ranking up and didn't get it. Then came the time of browsing forums and using the help chat.

Of course these people will be playing 50K games to level up quicker( flawed rank - not representing the actual skill level). Otherwise they get kicked.

Let's keep in mind that everyone know rank does not equal skill. Why not make a different system to rank up? What if to rank up you had to capture x enemy capitals or win x number of games. And for every alliance in that game you only get partial credit for the win.

It seems to me if you want rank to equal skill you can't base it on sp that you get for just being in a game.

This is economics. If you want skill then incentivize skills. If a skilled player kills the enemy then make a system that rewards that. It seems to me that the current sp system just rewards playing the game weather you win or lose. A rank 10 is not necessarily better than me, they've just played longer and have more upgrades.

נכתב על ידי jimmynow, 14.08.2015 at 06:56

Let's keep in mind that everyone know rank does not equal skill. Why not make a different system to rank up? What if to rank up you had to capture x enemy capitals or win x number of games. And for every alliance in that game you only get partial credit for the win.

It seems to me if you want rank to equal skill you can't base it on sp that you get for just being in a game.

This is economics. If you want skill then incentivize skills. If a skilled player kills the enemy then make a system that rewards that. It seems to me that the current sp system just rewards playing the game weather you win or lose. A rank 10 is not necessarily better than me, they've just played longer and have more upgrades.

Actually it sorta does, the higher rank you are, the more likely you are to be more skilled. What you want is a socialistic system where everybody is forced to be as equal as possible and people who invest a lot of time and money into the game are not rewarded.

נכתב על ידי e Mare, 14.08.2015 at 03:34

נכתב על ידי clovis1122, 13.08.2015 at 19:43

Full agree, though you learn a lot when playing, specially when you're low rank. There's certainly a difference between a player with 10 games and a new player.
I would say rank matter to low ranks... at least, it is less flawed than for rank 7 and upper.

Not necessarily. It took me a while( !) to figure out how to use that dreadful air transport. I kept ranking up and didn't get it. Then came the time of browsing forums and using the help chat.

Of course these people will be playing 50K games to level up quicker( flawed rank - not representing the actual skill level). Otherwise they get kicked.

Rank 5 and lower actually play a lot of 50k games, I also did in my time. So I would say it is not flawed but accurate enough. Now, I already know that (and fully agree that):

נכתב על ידי e Mare, 13.08.2015 at 17:59

Not necessarily. Some 'low-ranks' actually know a lot about this game. For example, because they browsed the forums and/ or sought help from more skilled players.

But if the majority doesn't, then what can we do?

1) Keep kicking all of them from the game - since the ones who know are such a small minority is better to not take risk.
2) Somehow raise the skill required by those players.
3) Somehow encourage those players to search for more knowledge and raise their skill by themselves.

None of them are easy to do, however... but we had found many ideas here. Maybe we can also find a way to encourage them to use the Help channel more often, but I've been noticing that we need people from different languages willing to help.. (specially Turks!).

The fundamental problem is that the only way to really get good is to be constantly beaten by superior players, until you learn how to play like they do. The learning curve on AW is steep, and many players aren't willing to take the demoralising losses in order to improve.

Additionally, I would say that raising the beginners lobby max rank won't help, as e Mare said: it will just decrease the skill level of r6's, as you cannot learn most advanced tactics from playing in the beginners lobby. A way needs to be found to encourage people to play in the main lobby before being forced out of it, in order to ease the transition to the main lobby.

נכתב על ידי EndsOfInvention, 14.08.2015 at 08:44

The fundamental problem is that the only way to really get good is to be constantly beaten by superior players, until you learn how to play like they do. The learning curve on AW is steep, and many players aren't willing to take the demoralising losses in order to improve.

Additionally, I would say that raising the beginners lobby max rank won't help, as e Mare said: it will just decrease the skill level of r6's, as you cannot learn most advanced tactics from playing in the beginners lobby. A way needs to be found to encourage people to play in the main lobby before being forced out of it, in order to ease the transition to the main lobby.

Of course players( low r.) can take advantage of the knowledge of the more highly skilled through, for example, training.
But whenever they're offered the opportunity to do so, most of the time nothing happens; there is no response.

נכתב על ידי Witch-Doctor, 14.08.2015 at 07:25

נכתב על ידי jimmynow, 14.08.2015 at 06:56

Let's keep in mind that everyone know rank does not equal skill. Why not make a different system to rank up? What if to rank up you had to capture x enemy capitals or win x number of games. And for every alliance in that game you only get partial credit for the win.

It seems to me if you want rank to equal skill you can't base it on sp that you get for just being in a game.

This is economics. If you want skill then incentivize skills. If a skilled player kills the enemy then make a system that rewards that. It seems to me that the current sp system just rewards playing the game weather you win or lose. A rank 10 is not necessarily better than me, they've just played longer and have more upgrades.

Actually it sorta does, the higher rank you are, the more likely you are to be more skilled. What you want is a socialistic system where everybody is forced to be as equal as possible and people who invest a lot of time and money into the game are not rewarded.

You are correct that on the current system the higher the rank the more LIKELY they are to be skilled. But you are wrong in that my suggestion is socialistic. It is not and I'd be curious to hear how you came to that conclusion. My suggestion would only reward those individuals who have skill. (*Note the qualification and definitions for what makes a player skilled have not been set yet.)

The current system a person could lose 1000 games straight and still rank up. That seems off to me. Currently a person ranks up for PLAYING not for being more SKILLED.

נכתב על ידי jimmynow, 14.08.2015 at 09:36

נכתב על ידי Witch-Doctor, 14.08.2015 at 07:25

נכתב על ידי jimmynow, 14.08.2015 at 06:56

Let's keep in mind that everyone know rank does not equal skill. Why not make a different system to rank up? What if to rank up you had to capture x enemy capitals or win x number of games. And for every alliance in that game you only get partial credit for the win.

It seems to me if you want rank to equal skill you can't base it on sp that you get for just being in a game.

This is economics. If you want skill then incentivize skills. If a skilled player kills the enemy then make a system that rewards that. It seems to me that the current sp system just rewards playing the game weather you win or lose. A rank 10 is not necessarily better than me, they've just played longer and have more upgrades.

Actually it sorta does, the higher rank you are, the more likely you are to be more skilled. What you want is a socialistic system where everybody is forced to be as equal as possible and people who invest a lot of time and money into the game are not rewarded.

You are correct that on the current system the higher the rank the more LIKELY they are to be skilled. But you are wrong in that my suggestion is socialistic. It is not and I'd be curious to hear how you came to that conclusion. My suggestion would only reward those individuals who have skill. (*Note the qualification and definitions for what makes a player skilled have not been set yet.)

The current system a person could lose 1000 games straight and still rank up. That seems off to me. Currently a person ranks up for PLAYING not for being more SKILLED.

Look if you want to talk skill, ask someone to make a 1v1 no upgrades/no strategy duel. There's no point changing the entire system that has worked thus far.

נכתב על ידי Permamuted, 13.08.2015 at 15:38

> sees waffel and clovis
> is genuinely too scared to post

Don't be scared lao... I'll give you a chance to be my favorite mod

So the FAQ is current outdated, and what's more, there's no entry when it comes to Walls(no wonder why low ranks doesn't wall!). The TurnBlock aspect is also (IMO) not detailed well-enough. If you make us the big favor and update it, we all would like you a lot more

נכתב על ידי Witch-Doctor, 14.08.2015 at 09:59

Look if you want to talk skill, ask someone to make a 1v1 no upgrades/no strategy duel. There's no point changing the entire system that has worked thus far.

jimmynow had no issues wallfucking turn 1 and surrendering turn 7 in my ww2.

I was having a nice discussion about what skill is here: http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=20930&topicsearch=&page=1
until it got trolled by fags

So far is:
Skill = Experience.
Experience = Amount of Games Played * Quality of the game played [How quality is determined is yet unknown] [The weight of Games and Quality is also yet unknown][I believe Quality is more important than the amount of Games played]

Amount of Games Played * Quality of the game played ≈ Rank
Rank ≈ Skill

נכתב על ידי Tundy, 14.08.2015 at 19:29

נכתב על ידי Witch-Doctor, 14.08.2015 at 09:59

Look if you want to talk skill, ask someone to make a 1v1 no upgrades/no strategy duel. There's no point changing the entire system that has worked thus far.

jimmynow had no issues wallfucking turn 1 and surrendering turn 7 in my ww2.

I didn't wallfuck on purpose. My soldiers were in my own country. And yes I surrendered in turn 7. I was a mess. Settle down there thunder.

I found solution. But a lot of people wont like it

I'm nowhere near as experienced as you guys, but I've found (through personal experience) that the tutorial is nowhere near as helpful as the forums and to a certain extent, the help channel. Also, what's with the pampering? Older atWar players like you guys didn't have the benefit of all this stuff like separate game windows and rubbish. If you guys could do it, why can't we? So we get kicked from games a lot. Same things happen in school, college, office, anywhere really. New guy; gotta learn the rules and gain experience to get respect. Older players mentoring younger ones ala adopt a newb? Sure. R5 to R7 separate windows and changing SP allocation methods? No.