Casual Game Convention for Turn 1

Hi Casual Players (and quick players interested in the matter),

Until turn 0 for Casual Games is implemented, we casual players have to live with some "inefficiencies" of the current programming. The main one being the fact that players joining on turn 1 are not allowed to reinforce before turn 2 (whereas players that joined on turn 1 - usually only the host - can reinforce on turn 1).

A first convention arose (at least in the close circle of my friends) that players joining on turn 0 should wait until turn 2 to reinforce, to be fair with players that joined on turn 1. This has the inevitable consequence of creating an extra income turn, at least for your home country, before first reinforcements.
However, a second convention arose: it was agreed that on turn 1 starting units are allowed to move, and even attack neutral countries.

Until programming creates turn 0, we have to live with convention #1.

However, convention #2 has, in my opinion, a twofold impact on the game:

• it prevents some countries to conquer neutrals before the first reinforcements, while other countries are still able to conquer neutrals (because you can't reinforce with transports, whether it is to cross water or increase your range on land). A typical example is UK vs Germany. With its starting infantries, Germany can conquer Belgium, Switzerland, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Austria, Czech Republic, Slovakia, and a lot more with the "General: Range" upgrades and strategies like Blitz. Whereas UK has no expansion at all, perhaps Ireland if you use the correct browser with the zoom "feature" This greatly increases reinforcement power for countries that can expand on turn 1.
  
• on top of the inevitable extra income turn from your home country, there is an extra income turn before first reinforcements for all the neutrals you conquered on turn 1. Again, if we apply that example to UK and Germany, it yields a HUGE monetary advantage for Germany.
  

Another convention to replace the convention #2 could be that only "defensive orders" can be issued to starting units. You can wall, you can move within your starting territory, but you can't attack neutrals. A kind of mobilization phase. I believe this would attenuate the perverse effects of waiting for turn 2 to reinforce.
The two downsides are that you have to be patient enough to wait for turn 2 to see the first action, and now the convention needs to be respected by ALL players (instead of just the host for current convention #1).

So I would like to have your opinion on the matter. Should starting units refrain from attacking neutrals on turn 1?

Yes - it will bring some balance back to Casual Games (and maybe bring more quick players because existing expansions will be more likely to work)
No - too long to wait before action kicks in
No - convention too hard to respect - there will always be a jerk that will NOT respect the convention
No - not a good idea (please detail below)
No - other (please detail below)

Thank you

I forgot, but another option would be to vote:
"No - just learn to adapt, the quality of the picks differ from quick games to casual games, it's no big deal. We can see it as a different game."

I'm not sure that I understand the poll - as I see it, having the host (and any other Turn 0 players) refrain from building units on Turn 1 is the best case scenario in terms of balance and the odds of it being followed.

Also, I noticed that an option appeared some time ago in the menu that says something like "delay start of game" during the picking phase. Does that solve the problem? Can a host delay the start until the game is full?

נכתב על ידי Noir Brillant, 08.11.2017 at 13:30

Another convention to replace the convention #2 could be that only "defensive orders" can be issued to starting units. You can wall, you can move within your starting territory, but you can't attack neutrals. A kind of mobilization phase. I believe this would attenuate the perverse effects of waiting for turn 2 to reinforce.

Not really. If I'm Germany and UK is joining next turn, and I'm not allowed to capture neutrals, just wall stuff, I'd wall my cap, cities (if possible), Netherlands, Belgium, Paris, Denmark, Austria, Czech, and maybe even Swiss, completely cutting off UK's expansion, and securing mine for next turn. Basically, it just reduces and doesn't negate Germany's income advantage by expanding where UK can't in your scenario (although it can capture Ireland with Belfast without needing to zoombug)

My turn 1 as Germany in your scenario without making a single unit or taking a single neutral city:

נכתב על ידי Darth., 09.11.2017 at 08:51

Yes, of course, if you can wall neutrals, it doesn't help. The main goal of my suggestion is exactly to limit the extra income and extra reinforcement. And as you pointed out, walling neutrals should not be part of what is allowed, if not, it just delays the huge advantage. What I meant is walling your own cities, a real mobilization phase, where you can move inside your home country borders only. In other words, a kind of "lost turn" to replace the missing turn 0. That way, the game really starts on turn 2, when everyone can reinforce.

(Another hidden goal here is to try to keep the balance of Eu+, in order to get real competitive casual games)

נכתב על ידי Darth., 09.11.2017 at 08:51

נכתב על ידי Noir Brillant, 08.11.2017 at 13:30

Another convention to replace the convention #2 could be that only "defensive orders" can be issued to starting units. You can wall, you can move within your starting territory, but you can't attack neutrals. A kind of mobilization phase. I believe this would attenuate the perverse effects of waiting for turn 2 to reinforce.

Not really. If I'm Germany and UK is joining next turn, and I'm not allowed to capture neutrals, just wall stuff, I'd wall my cap, cities (if possible), Netherlands, Belgium, Paris, Denmark, Austria, Czech, and maybe even Swiss, completely cutting off UK's expansion, and securing mine for next turn. Basically, it just reduces and doesn't negate Germany's income advantage by expanding where UK can't in your scenario (although it can capture Ireland with Belfast without needing to zoombug)

My turn 1 as Germany in your scenario without making a single unit or taking a single neutral city:

if france is your ally then why not take nether Austria and Denmark as t1
I think uk is at a big disadvantage in casual games, so is turk and ukr

נכתב על ידי 4nic, 09.11.2017 at 13:47

if france is your ally then why not take nether Austria and Denmark as t1
I think uk is at a big disadvantage in casual games, so is turk and ukr

You are getting a little closer to what I was trying to express ... If UK, and Turk, and UKR are bad choices in Casual (we could add isolated countries like Spain and Russia Central, because they can't expand very much without reinforcements), I mean ... what are the good picks left?

I think that not reinforcing on turn 1 limits the balance and competitiveness of Eu+ like crazy. So why not wait until turn 2 so that everybody can expand at the same time? Suddenly, we would be back with almost the exact situation as in quick games (apart from the extra income turn of your home country)

נכתב על ידי Noir Brillant, 09.11.2017 at 14:34

נכתב על ידי 4nic, 09.11.2017 at 13:47

if france is your ally then why not take nether Austria and Denmark as t1
I think uk is at a big disadvantage in casual games, so is turk and ukr

You are getting a little closer to what I was trying to express ... If UK, and Turk, and UKR are bad choices in Casual (we could add isolated countries like Spain and Russia Central, because they can't expand very much without reinforcements), I mean ... what are the good picks left?

I think that not reinforcing on turn 1 limits the balance and competitiveness of Eu+ like crazy. So why not wait until turn 2 so that everybody can expand at the same time? Suddenly, we would be back with almost the exact situation as in quick games (apart from the extra income turn of your home country)

i say we just decide on times to start casual games.
You'll make turk much more op than ukr now since I can do my full expansion that uses tanks and all that generally has tanks alive and still have monies to do an air transport on "turn 2"

נכתב על ידי Noir Brillant, 08.11.2017 at 13:30

the zoom "feature"

you just couldn't resist quoting me, could you?

Also,

נכתב על ידי Noir Brillant, 08.11.2017 at 13:30

No - convention too hard to respect - there will always be a jerk that will NOT respect the convention

is very true.
It's hard enough to get people to not wf, not rewall and respect dcs.
Now you want this

נכתב על ידי Checkamte, 10.11.2017 at 07:05

i say we just decide on times to start casual games.

Agreed

נכתב על ידי Checkamte, 10.11.2017 at 07:05

You'll make turk much more op than ukr now since I can do my full expansion that uses tanks and all that generally has tanks alive and still have monies to do an air transport on "turn 2"

Not sure I am following you. My suggestion is to mimic the quick games, but one turn later. So turn 1, we do nothing except stuff within our own borders. Turn 2, we expand, exactly like turn 1 in quick games. Yes, agreed, you will be able to do the full expansion using tanks and all, but so does Ukr, UK, Germany, etc. Did I misunderstand something in what you said? Or ... am I simply not seeing something flawed in my reasoning?

נכתב על ידי Checkamte, 10.11.2017 at 07:05

you just couldn't resist quoting me, could you?

Nope, I can't


Nevertheless, as you and I both pointed out, the sad reality might be that:

נכתב על ידי Checkamte, 10.11.2017 at 07:05

נכתב על ידי Noir Brillant, 08.11.2017 at 13:30

No - convention too hard to respect - there will always be a jerk that will NOT respect the convention

is very true.
It's hard enough to get people to not wf, not rewall and respect dcs.
Now you want this

So instead of trying to establish a full-fledged convention, maybe we could keep the idea for quick game players that wish to live the Casual game experience without the effect of the no reinforcement on turn 1 convention; we could decide on a game to game basis.

PS (not necessarily meant for you in particular, but more for documentation purposes): I'm not trying to come up with a wild idea out of nowhere, and disturb the established order for nothing. I've played many casual games now with quick game players, and there is a complaint that gets verbalized almost every single time: "no reinforcement on turn 1 sucks". That's why I am trying to find a solution. Just trying to help AtWar stay alive

I would love to say
Choosing an Island country has its own pros and cons
Bad sides are low economy and expansion
But the good is You can prevent Capital being attacked before joining the game
There is always a scene that your capital attacked on turn 1 when your starting capital is in neutral
Choosing an Island country can prevent it from happening

Overall I think I will question if there is any possibility that those players joining turn 1 be able to have reinforcement by changing codes or changing the mechanism
Because let say late join (immediate join mechansim on) )in quick game can allow you to have reinforcement by that turn
I think same mechanism should be able to apply on causal games

נכתב על ידי john9872564, 12.11.2017 at 10:57

Overall I think I will question if there is any possibility that those players joining turn 1 be able to have reinforcement by changing codes or changing the mechanism
Because let say late join (immediate join mechansim on) )in quick game can allow you to have reinforcement by that turn
I think same mechanism should be able to apply on causal games

Agreed. That's a possibility. If turn 0 can't be programmed quickly, maybe we could have a special rule for casual games where players joining on turn 1 can have reinforcement immediately. That would be great.

Only contingently.

Look if you're France, don't attack the major player choices. Don't attack Germany, don't attack England (shouldn't be able to, if you're attack eng you're a huge ass) , Spain, Ukraine. Go ahead and attack minor countries.


Look friend if you pitch your tent up as Belgium right next to france you shouldn't be surprised to be steam rolled. Likewise if you join within infantry range of a US or china country, same story. Be smart and put some distance.