Which type of player can adapt best to a new map?

נכתב על ידי clovis1122, 23.10.2015 at 08:38

Just a clarification, when I say "default map player" or "scenario player" I am not referring to a pure player of that map. Just to a common player of that side.

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My vote goes for the scenario players...

I though default map players were the ones who could adapt best, until I saw some of them playing WW1... was terrible, 100% lack of knowledge about the units and trenches. Some of them even trolled it.

On the other hand, scenario players usually don't play a single map but a couple of scenarios, and can adapt quite well to default map or custom maps.

RP kills custom map players so I wonder the reasons for someone to vote for it. Ancient is great though...

Ofc its scenario players, (dont confuse scenario players with wwi fags),

נכתב על ידי Evic, 23.10.2015 at 07:53

Ofc its scenario players, (dont confuse scenario players with wwi fags),

I've see a lot of WW1 players to play other scenarios like endsieg, and even vale is interested in europe gameplay... So not sure if there is any pure WW1 player yet.

Back in my times we used to play Tik's WW2, and many of those players are decent players at other zones like Nero (best italy). I loved that map...

I play all three though

נכתב על ידי clovis1122, 23.10.2015 at 07:57

vale isnt a wwi fag doe,he plays loads of other scenarios.
i was refering to people like ulvi,mateo,karlsacher,godfather and me (in old times ofc)

נכתב על ידי clovis1122, 23.10.2015 at 07:50

I though default map players were the ones who could adapt best, until I saw some of them playing WW1... was terrible, 100% lack of knowledge about the units and trenches. Some of them even trolled it.

The reason why default map players can't play WWI is because they simply don't understand how it works. WWI games almost always follow a basic "script" and when a player deviates from that script he almost always loses. However, adapting is not hard once you understand the script. I watched many WWI games before I played my first, and then my first game I played as Russia and played quite well because I understood the script (when the revolution comes, how to fight it, etc.). But as long as all players understand the script the game comes down to the skills of the players.

Inb4 default players win due to them representing a majority in the forums

Terrible thread, the answer is obvious, the funny thing is that no scenario player or custom map player has ever won a tournament on atwar ever. If they were good at adapting they should be able to challenge default world players on their own maps no? Even tournaments on custom maps have been dominated by the default map players. Worse scenario players usually dont have to learn expansion since theyre selecting "sides". It's like looking at a fish out of water when they try to play the default map or literally any map that requires expansion.

The thing is, the default players learn to optimise the hell out of their country/strat combos. The rangeskills, the optimisation, the competition with other players and clans. They take these skills with them to other maps. No i am sorry, there is simply no comparison. You're living in a fantasy world if you believe scenario players are good at adapting.

Also custom map players are better in this regard than scenario players too. Pure scenario players are at the bottom of the foodchain when it comes to an overall knowlege of atwar gameplay.

Representing the custom map players... a thinking Custom map player understands meta AW theory better than most others due to a greater knowledge of the variables involved in the game and how they change from map to map. You'll find them looking out for special units more and have a greater appreciation for a solid starting country (best balance of funds and start units and geo-positioning of the country compared to other strategic locations like ports and high income/high reinforcement areas.

They may still get it wrong most of the time but their first guess will never be bad and they can always be competitive, and because they always look for the best way to play a map based on the AW variables they always improve faster.. there's just so few of them to do any voting in here... or they consider themselves more of a scenario or default map player as a result..

BUT I LOVE ANCIENT SO SUK IT!

Edit: and custom maps are fun... LOTR... GOT... Ancient.. I'd love to play a so called "default map player" on any of those maps.. I will not deny they are the best players of AW... but the question is "who adapts better from map to map"... and I highly doubt anyone of my rank could match me in a random map that neither of us have seen before... because I appreciate the meta theory.

Just a clarification, when I say "default map player" or "scenario player" I am not referring to a pure player of that map. Just to a common player of that side.

I play all three, so I fits all three (or fit none at all, as I said previously). learster and panteri are good scenario players, too.

נכתב על ידי Permamuted, 23.10.2015 at 08:20

the question was which type of players can adapt faster, i saw 0 arguments that prove basic map players take the cake.
you counted your belives as to why basic map takes most skill,not why its players are most adaptive.

at the end of the day,just how can a player that plays the same map over and over and over again be more adaptive than a player that has regulary played atleast 30 or 40 maps and a few times on probably 100+ of them?

it simply doesnt make logical sense.

I don't think a comparison can really be made... each type grows different skills. But we can all agree custom maps is worst because RP.

Default map players play only default map. That's the problem with them. They play the most played map (and mostly only on Europe+ 10k) while they don't even dare to try something new. Their only actual skill is memorization -- they remember the expansions correctly.

Scenario players DO pick a scenario side, yet they have to plan their gameplay based on others' regions income, reinforcements, ports etc. They can do it on any map, because they think about the gameplay instead of memorizing everything. If somebody thinks a scenario is scripted, he will never play it well. If you don't try to play something in a different way, you'll never improve and it'll really be scripted.

Custom map players do almost the same as default map players, but on the other maps. They don't know many "must have picks", like UK, France, Germany, Turkey, Ukraine, Italy and Spain on Europe+ 10k. They should adapt to a different map with any units, countries, cities, roles if they aren't total idiots. I am not talking about RP players when I talk about scenario players, because we all know they mostly suck.

In short, both scenario and custom map players MAY be very good at adapting if they want to try something new instead of doing the scripted stuff. Default map players are mostly just stuck in their chairs and memorizing expansions.

נכתב על ידי Guest, 23.10.2015 at 09:26

Default map players play only default map. That's the problem with them. They play the most played map (and mostly only on Europe+ 10k) while they don't even dare to try something new. Their only actual skill is memorization -- they remember the expansions correctly.

Scenario players DO pick a scenario side, yet they have to plan their gameplay based on others' regions income, reinforcements, ports etc. If somebody thinks a scenario is scripted, he will never play it well. If you don't try to play something in a different way, you'll never improve and it'll really be scripted.

Custom map players do almost the same as default map players, but on the other maps. They don't know many "must have picks", like UK, France, Germany, Turkey, Ukraine, Italy and Spain on Europe+ 10k. They simply adapt to a different map with any units, countries, cities, roles. I am not talking about RP players when I talk about scenario players, because we all know they mostly suck.

In short, both scenario and custom map players MAY be very good at adapting if they want to try something new instead of doing the scripted stuff. Default map players are mostly just stuck in their chairs and memorizing expansions.

that is absolutely laughable.

נכתב על ידי Zephyrusu, 23.10.2015 at 09:20

I don't think a comparison can really be made... each type grows different skills. But we can all agree custom maps is worst because RP.

RP'ers don't even come into the equation... they have their own catagory... Custom map players are primarily ancient players in the conversation.

נכתב על ידי Xenosapien, 23.10.2015 at 09:31

נכתב על ידי Guest, 23.10.2015 at 09:26

Default map players play only default map. That's the problem with them. They play the most played map (and mostly only on Europe+ 10k) while they don't even dare to try something new. Their only actual skill is memorization -- they remember the expansions correctly.

Scenario players DO pick a scenario side, yet they have to plan their gameplay based on others' regions income, reinforcements, ports etc. If somebody thinks a scenario is scripted, he will never play it well. If you don't try to play something in a different way, you'll never improve and it'll really be scripted.

Custom map players do almost the same as default map players, but on the other maps. They don't know many "must have picks", like UK, France, Germany, Turkey, Ukraine, Italy and Spain on Europe+ 10k. They simply adapt to a different map with any units, countries, cities, roles. I am not talking about RP players when I talk about scenario players, because we all know they mostly suck.

In short, both scenario and custom map players MAY be very good at adapting if they want to try something new instead of doing the scripted stuff. Default map players are mostly just stuck in their chairs and memorizing expansions.

that is absolutely laughable.

If it is laughable, try to play any other map but EU. I bet you would die T5 against any decent player.

נכתב על ידי Evic, 23.10.2015 at 08:47

נכתב על ידי Permamuted, 23.10.2015 at 08:20

the question was which type of players can adapt faster, i saw 0 arguments that prove basic map players take the cake.
you counted your belives as to why basic map takes most skill,not why its players are most adaptive.

at the end of the day,just how can a player that plays the same map over and over and over again be more adaptive than a player that has regulary played atleast 30 or 40 maps and a few times on probably 100+ of them?

it simply doesnt male logical sense.

did you miss my point that no non default world player has won a tournament on atwar ever? You can go check this. The poll is asking which players are best at adapting. If scenario players can adapt they should be able to win tournaments anywhere. Also skill and the ability to adapt are linked. A player is skillful because they are able to adapt.

And it does make logical sense. But i am so tired of this boring old argument to bother elaborating. Read this.

נכתב על ידי Desu, 21.11.2013 at 05:38

Here's the thing. You specifically and very few others can possibly make a map work. Some measure of balance can be achieved. Even a perfect imbalance is possible. Not all maps can gain this, not even close. Players spread out playing only custom maps and scenarios won't be playing balanced maps all the time. But the point in the OP is that players do not fully understand game mechanics by playing custom maps or scenarios.

My first point that I will try to describe is that the ones that play 3vs3's or 1vs1's on the standard map learn at a higher level. Learning on the standard map, be it eu+, eurasia, or even world, has its benefits. They play against, play with, and watch higher ranked players micromanage units for 100% efficiency and learn what is possible. Competitive clans teach their new players and lower ranks how to use and get the most out of every viable strategy.

Onto my second point. I can take a decent 3 vs 3(or 1vs1) player around rank 9 that plays on the standard map all the time, and never plays scenarios or custom maps, and make this player start on a map he has never played before. They will grasp the technicalities quickly and be able to match most players who play that very map on a regular basis. As this player gets more playthroughs and learns how every unit works and unit starting positions, they will be able to match most high ranks who play custom maps and scenarios. This is after maybe twenty plays. Easy.

The same cannot be said when you put this into reverse. A custom map/scenario player around rank 9 who has never played the standard map since they were rank 3 will never beat any top tier 3 vs 3 player more than they are beaten. Not even if they had a month. Not even if they had two months. Here's the thing, they will never be better than the already standard elite. I can even pick out low rank 5-6's who play the standard map that will grow to be far stronger than them(or already are) when they reach the same rank(9). In fact, if I somehow convinced Barrymore to return and gave Cow a rank 9 account, annoyed Fruit enough to get online, paid Aristosseur's debt to play, or suddenly VRIL/Bargain started playing again, they would wreck every new player that has reached rank 8+ within the last 6 months in both Custom/scenarios and 3 vs 3s/1vs1's. This is after months of not playing, or not playing regularly.

This is the difference between the so-called competition in custom maps/scenarios, and the standard map. Of course there are those who play both. Enjoy.

and for further points on this discussion, read from page 3 onwards of this thread.

http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=14777&topicsearch=&page=3

you'll see clovis already had this argument before. Idk why he makes threads like this. Probably bored and enjoys the drama.

נכתב על ידי Permamuted, 23.10.2015 at 09:38

did you miss my point that no non default world player has won a tournament on atwar ever? You can go check this. The poll is asking which players are best at adapting. If scenario players can adapt they should be able to win tournaments anywhere. Also skill and the ability to adapt are linked. A player is skillful because they are able to adapt.

And it does make logical sense. But i am so tired of this boring old argument to bother elaborating. Read this.

you do realise like 90% of tourneys are on EU+ or basic world game right? and those other 10% are ancient and some other custom maps maybe.

also most of scenario players arent on forum since we dont get bored among hundereds of maps,unlike most of EU players XD

נכתב על ידי Permamuted, 23.10.2015 at 09:38

Let's do the scenario tournament so we can see default map players' skills on the other maps. Of course that the guys who play EU 10k 24/7 would win EU 10k tournament.

נכתב על ידי Guest, 23.10.2015 at 09:37

נכתב על ידי Xenosapien, 23.10.2015 at 09:31

נכתב על ידי Guest, 23.10.2015 at 09:26

Default map players play only default map. That's the problem with them. They play the most played map (and mostly only on Europe+ 10k) while they don't even dare to try something new. Their only actual skill is memorization -- they remember the expansions correctly.

Scenario players DO pick a scenario side, yet they have to plan their gameplay based on others' regions income, reinforcements, ports etc. If somebody thinks a scenario is scripted, he will never play it well. If you don't try to play something in a different way, you'll never improve and it'll really be scripted.

Custom map players do almost the same as default map players, but on the other maps. They don't know many "must have picks", like UK, France, Germany, Turkey, Ukraine, Italy and Spain on Europe+ 10k. They simply adapt to a different map with any units, countries, cities, roles. I am not talking about RP players when I talk about scenario players, because we all know they mostly suck.

In short, both scenario and custom map players MAY be very good at adapting if they want to try something new instead of doing the scripted stuff. Default map players are mostly just stuck in their chairs and memorizing expansions.

that is absolutely laughable.

If it is laughable, try to play any other map but EU. I bet you would die T5 against any decent player.

I have and I've done better than regular players of those maps I guess none of them are decent then .

נכתב על ידי Permamuted, 23.10.2015 at 09:38

נכתב על ידי Evic, 23.10.2015 at 08:47

נכתב על ידי Permamuted, 23.10.2015 at 08:20

the question was which type of players can adapt faster, i saw 0 arguments that prove basic map players take the cake.
you counted your belives as to why basic map takes most skill,not why its players are most adaptive.

at the end of the day,just how can a player that plays the same map over and over and over again be more adaptive than a player that has regulary played atleast 30 or 40 maps and a few times on probably 100+ of them?

it simply doesnt male logical sense.

did you miss my point that no non default world player has won a tournament on atwar ever? You can go check this. The poll is asking which players are best at adapting. If scenario players can adapt they should be able to win tournaments anywhere. Also skill and the ability to adapt are linked. A player is skillful because they are able to adapt.

And it does make logical sense. But i am so tired of this boring old argument to bother elaborating. Read this.

נכתב על ידי Desu, 21.11.2013 at 05:38

Here's the thing. You specifically and very few others can possibly make a map work. Some measure of balance can be achieved. Even a perfect imbalance is possible. Not all maps can gain this, not even close. Players spread out playing only custom maps and scenarios won't be playing balanced maps all the time. But the point in the OP is that players do not fully understand game mechanics by playing custom maps or scenarios.

My first point that I will try to describe is that the ones that play 3vs3's or 1vs1's on the standard map learn at a higher level. Learning on the standard map, be it eu+, eurasia, or even world, has its benefits. They play against, play with, and watch higher ranked players micromanage units for 100% efficiency and learn what is possible. Competitive clans teach their new players and lower ranks how to use and get the most out of every viable strategy.

Onto my second point. I can take a decent 3 vs 3(or 1vs1) player around rank 9 that plays on the standard map all the time, and never plays scenarios or custom maps, and make this player start on a map he has never played before. They will grasp the technicalities quickly and be able to match most players who play that very map on a regular basis. As this player gets more playthroughs and learns how every unit works and unit starting positions, they will be able to match most high ranks who play custom maps and scenarios. This is after maybe twenty plays. Easy.

The same cannot be said when you put this into reverse. A custom map/scenario player around rank 9 who has never played the standard map since they were rank 3 will never beat any top tier 3 vs 3 player more than they are beaten. Not even if they had a month. Not even if they had two months. Here's the thing, they will never be better than the already standard elite. I can even pick out low rank 5-6's who play the standard map that will grow to be far stronger than them(or already are) when they reach the same rank(9). In fact, if I somehow convinced Barrymore to return and gave Cow a rank 9 account, annoyed Fruit enough to get online, paid Aristosseur's debt to play, or suddenly VRIL/Bargain started playing again, they would wreck every new player that has reached rank 8+ within the last 6 months in both Custom/scenarios and 3 vs 3s/1vs1's. This is after months of not playing, or not playing regularly.

This is the difference between the so-called competition in custom maps/scenarios, and the standard map. Of course there are those who play both. Enjoy.

and for further points on this discussion, read from page 3 onwards of this thread.

http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=14777&topicsearch=&page=3

you'll see clovis already had this argument before. Idk why he makes threads like this. Probably bored and enjoys the drama.

That point about no non default map player winning a tournament.. Most tournaments are played on default maps.. so ofcourse they win. Clovis and panteri - scenario players have won seasonal duel trophies. We can't scientifically test this though and AW itself doesnt really allow for a test of "best player". So we should all just let it go...

Or accept that BrianWL is the best player and he plays anything....

נכתב על ידי Xenosapien, 23.10.2015 at 09:50

Out of all the games you played, you have less than 10 games that weren't on world map and you played them 400-500 days ago. Please lie better next time.

נכתב על ידי Guest, 23.10.2015 at 09:53

נכתב על ידי Xenosapien, 23.10.2015 at 09:50

Out of all the games you played, you have less than 10 games that weren't on world map and you played them 400-500 days ago. Please lie better next time.

ha less than 10, definitely more than that, you do know that past games are bugged right?

נכתב על ידי Xenosapien, 23.10.2015 at 09:57

נכתב על ידי Guest, 23.10.2015 at 09:53

נכתב על ידי Xenosapien, 23.10.2015 at 09:50

Out of all the games you played, you have less than 10 games that weren't on world map and you played them 400-500 days ago. Please lie better next time.

ha less than 10, definitely more than that, you do know that past games are bugged right?

So in the past 400 days there was a bug that only hid all your non default map games but default map games aren't bugged?... come on Xeno.... use your brain

נכתב על ידי Evic, 23.10.2015 at 09:43

נכתב על ידי Permamuted, 23.10.2015 at 09:38

did you miss my point that no non default world player has won a tournament on atwar ever? You can go check this. The poll is asking which players are best at adapting. If scenario players can adapt they should be able to win tournaments anywhere. Also skill and the ability to adapt are linked. A player is skillful because they are able to adapt.

And it does make logical sense. But i am so tired of this boring old argument to bother elaborating. Read this.

you do realise like 90% of tourneys are on EU+ or basic world game right? and those other 10% are ancient and some other custom maps maybe.

also most of scenario players arent on forum since we dont get bored among hundereds of maps,unlike most of EU players XD

and look at the 10%, all won by default world players. Look at the recent ancient world tourney, none of the regular players made it past the semis, and thats just if you include zone as a regular ancient player, which he isnt anymore.

נכתב על ידי Guest, 23.10.2015 at 09:45

נכתב על ידי Permamuted, 23.10.2015 at 09:38

Let's do the scenario tournament so we can see default map players' skills on the other maps. Of course that the guys who play EU 10k 24/7 would win EU 10k tournament.

I would love to see this happen and have asked for it on more than 1 occasion.

נכתב על ידי Phoenix, 23.10.2015 at 09:53

clovis is a default map player at his core. his guides, his skill, his elo, all come from default world. But his contrarian nature means he must deny this even in the face of all reason. Panteri23 is the same.

Sigh all the best players of this game are from the default world map. It is not we who have to prove anything to you. You have to prove your worth to us. Start playing/hosting tournaments and winning them(not going to happen).

נכתב על ידי Xenosapien, 23.10.2015 at 09:57

I won't continue discussion about this. None of the older scenario players have seen you playing scenarios. If you are good at them, then why you haven't won a single game there?

And for the stats: you played exactly 9 non-world map games -- 3 ancient, 2 hellas, 1 extreme remastered world (it's just a bit different world map but okay), some weird dix-huit map, 1 mediterranean and 1 dreamworld.

Good to see this threat had generated some great response.

Yes I agree, if we remove RP from custom map, the skills is greatly increased, and they can adapt even better than default worldmap players since they play different maps more often.

נכתב על ידי Phoenix, 23.10.2015 at 09:53

Clovis and panteri - scenario players have won seasonal duel trophies

This is true. We aren't only scenario players though, since we play all. Even top players like learster are scenario players, too. You can either account us on all category or simply disqualify us from all categories.

נכתב על ידי Permamuted, 23.10.2015 at 10:02

נכתב על ידי Evic, 23.10.2015 at 09:43

נכתב על ידי Permamuted, 23.10.2015 at 09:38

did you miss my point that no non default world player has won a tournament on atwar ever? You can go check this. The poll is asking which players are best at adapting. If scenario players can adapt they should be able to win tournaments anywhere. Also skill and the ability to adapt are linked. A player is skillful because they are able to adapt.

And it does make logical sense. But i am so tired of this boring old argument to bother elaborating. Read this.

you do realise like 90% of tourneys are on EU+ or basic world game right? and those other 10% are ancient and some other custom maps maybe.

also most of scenario players arent on forum since we dont get bored among hundereds of maps,unlike most of EU players XD

and look at the 10%, all won by default world players. Look at the recent ancient world tourney, none of the regular players made it past the semis, and thats just if you include zone as a regular ancient player, which he isnt anymore.

נכתב על ידי Guest, 23.10.2015 at 09:45

נכתב על ידי Permamuted, 23.10.2015 at 09:38

Let's do the scenario tournament so we can see default map players' skills on the other maps. Of course that the guys who play EU 10k 24/7 would win EU 10k tournament.

I would love to see this happen and have asked for it on more than 1 occasion.

נכתב על ידי Phoenix, 23.10.2015 at 09:53

clovis is a default map player at his core. his guides, his skill, his elo, all come from default world. But his contrarian nature means he must deny this even in the face of all reason. Panteri23 is the same.

Sigh all the best players of this game are from the default world map. It is not we who have to prove anything to you. You have to prove your worth to us. Start playing/hosting tournaments and winning them(not going to happen).

Okay... so according to what you're saying every good player is a default map player?

I for one learned a lot on the default map but it's boring as fuck and I only play it so often because there are more games made of default because most players dont have access to premium games which all custom and scenario maps are...

Just because more training and practice takes place on default does not mean those who play them are default map players.. it simply means default is more common.. like the fact there are so many more votes for default players in this thread....

But this is about ADAPTABILITY not who is "best"... please someone test this properly.. that ancient tourney; Clovis made final round, and no one higher than rank 10 made semi finals and most ancient players I know are below r10 because the sp is so pitiful and ranking up takes longer. Stryko didnt win without learning the map either so i'd personally argue with you said that he is a custom map player. But he will likely say he is a default player.... Clovis and panteri say they are scenario players.. then they are scenario players.

Edit: Clovis if you can be an "ALL" type of player than what is the point of making this thread? Clearly an "all type" is most adaptable by definition.

Custom map players are "all players" anyway.... meaning a player willing to play any map made by anyone.. scenario's are all custom too so gg I win

נכתב על ידי Permamuted, 23.10.2015 at 10:02

clovis is a default map player at his core. his guides, his skill, his elo, all come from default world. But his contrarian nature means he must deny this even in the face of all reason. Panteri23 is the same.

Sigh all the best players of this game are from the default world map. It is not we who have to prove anything to you. You have to prove your worth to us. Start playing/hosting tournaments and winning them(not going to happen).

i dunno about clovis and his relations to scenarios cuz he has been playing them as far as i know about AW (by that i mean when i joined AW),but for panteri can say this.he started playing scenarios lately,mostly wwi and even though playing over 10 times he is still getting rekt game in and game out,even after playing and whatching wwi for a while now he still rushes like a noob at targets that clearly cant be rushed,he doesnt use trenches properly and still cant wrap his head arround the funding system (or so ive been told about this part)

and what does determin best player? if we are looking by SP out of top 5 only mauzer is a standard map player only,other 4 (brain,KFF,zizou and oldskool) are playing all maps that gat you lots of SP.
by elo maybe? well problem there is that most of duels take place in a Eu+ game and they are done by EU+ players,so you cant judge best AW player by that.
its like saying best AW player is somebody who is best in RP,you simply cant do that

OH FFS learn to quote ppl,all those who are failing at it have like 200+ posts................you should know what you are doing by now

נכתב על ידי Evic, 23.10.2015 at 10:16

OH FFS learn to quote ppl,all those who are failing at it have like 200+ posts................you should know what you are doing by now

cba... deal with it