Remove 2x SP from Clan Wars

Original thread by clovis:
Remove 2x SP from Clan Wars

Decided to start a new thread with a few statistics to prove my point on why the 2x SP multiplier in Clan Wars should be removed. (all stats are based on games played since the beginning of this season)

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I would have done more but time is a limiting factor for me especially since all this was done manually.

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Reasons::

נכתב על ידי clovis1122, 30.11.2014 at 17:09

2x SP effect on Clan Wars:

•) The appear of "farming clans" (Clans playing for SP. They dont care about losing).

•) Greatly reduce the quality of CW's. If in the past we had few CW's but with quality, now we have a lot of cw's but without quality.

•) Probably the most negative effect: It greatly damage the current 3vs3 system. Players tend to CW more often, and 3vs3 less. This of course damage the player on long-term (no practice) and also affect the new players that still play 3vs3 on main lobby (no expert hand for play)

•) Bribe players. They want SP, they play for SP.

•) The cw's on custom maps (like ancient) are starting to grow. This would be good , except for the players doing it for SP, and not for the diversity.

Suggestions::

נכתב על ידי Acquiesce, 04.05.2015 at 06:12

It should be 1.5x sp

נכתב על ידי RaulPB, 04.05.2015 at 17:10

Okey, a probably stupid suggestion: is there a way to make the sp bonus dependent on the rank of the player?? That would mean that the lower his rank is, the more SP bonus he'll get. We could also make it so that from rank 10 onwards, the bonus is decreased to 0. This way newbies are still tempted to play cws while higher ranks which don't need the sp for anything at all make the normal amount of SP.

Please refrain from and suggestions you are not contributing to the discussion.

I support 2x SP removal, I can see the argument there. Clans should play for fun and not SP and I am just as much against farming and low standards of play in the clan war room as others hopefully are.

This would seem to discourage a lot more than clan waring.

Clan waring isn't very popular as it stands. If you take away the one personal bonus from it and it might become obsolete. This doesnt mean good news for 3v3 either, it probably means less coalition involvement which leads to less desire to practice in the first place.

Think about it like this: You are part of a soccer team. Your soccer team has to choose between A.) Playing in lots tourneyments but little practice, B.) Practice but no trophies or recocgnition for the top performing players. It doesn't sound very appealing to practice for the big small game coming up (Analogy is In the context of rewards, not quality). Some might say that the trophies are in the form of the trophies on the clan page you get for having the most elo for that season. These are not immediate rewards and dont benefit you personally in any "tangible" sense.

They do however bring together the bigger picture of clan waring (atleast to Singuarity). We play a lot of clan wars but i would not consider any of them low quality. Most of our games are spent with ~5 minutes planning of strategy. I'm not sure how having less clan wars would lead to a quality improvement. The players are not going to get better (read above).

Is playing the game for sp a bad thing? "Why would you play the game for upgrades and rank ups?" -Someone who doesnt understand the reward/heirarchy system in place here. As someone who owned game servers for several years, there is only so much fun you can have without making some sort of progress. Certain players and clans do benefit from it more than others but i think that is the point of it. If Ferluccini is playing in every clan war at the top of his game, he should be rewarded. And if he wasn't, i'm sure that might discourage him.

נכתב על ידי Sid, 04.05.2015 at 01:21

I understand the point your trying to invoke but players(like yourself) often forget the main purpose why the 2x SP multiplier were implemented in the first place..

To encourage clan wars (back when it was very rare)

To reward you for the effort it took to set up a clan war (back when it was very difficult to set up)

These no longer apply as it is more than easy for players to set up clan wars now days(just global "CWWWW" and watch the replies flood in) and clans wars aren't exactly rare now days just look at the latest game logs it shows 10 clan wars in 3 hours. Just read clovis's thread that was last year and the arguments brought up were pretty solid as clan wars were not as common as they are now back then.

Regarding your reward system. As much as I agree with what you said 1 type of game can not be more rewarding than the other. Isn't that why the community called for nerf of the SP you gained from RP?

Dont do this, just no

נכתב על ידי Eagle, 04.05.2015 at 02:33

Dont do this, just no

If you have no argument against this or no reason to keep this I don't see why your opinion matters. After all you have benefited a lot from the 2x SP multiplier, and if you didn't stop play clan wars 9 days ago I am more than certain that you would top Ferluccini on the "Most Benefited List".

נכתב על ידי Meester, 04.05.2015 at 02:52

נכתב על ידי Eagle, 04.05.2015 at 02:33

Dont do this, just no

If you have no argument against this or no reason to keep this I don't see why your opinion matters. After all you have benefited a lot from the 2x SP multiplier, and if you didn't stop play clan wars 9 days ago I am more than certain that you would top Ferluccini on the "Most Benefited List".

The reason why I down voted is because most of the competitive players, such as I, mostly play cw's and rarely some other games, maybe some duel from time to time. Basically 90% of our sp comes from cw's, on which we can all agree. So how can we compete in sp, with someone like KFF, when the time he shows up, he farms over 5k sp daily in scenarios.,, We play 1-2 cw's a day max, and I believe my record for sp in a cw was 9k sp, which I played for 48 turns against Mauzer. Regardless to that, I also believe that the x2 sp encourages lower ranks to play cw's, since in last year I can see that over 15 clans have been made and now are participating in cw's, and I believe one of the reasons they started to play cw's is the x2 sp.

This was an incentive for the clans when there were almost no Clan wars played, while now we have dozens of clans that are almost 100 cw's into the season, with two clans being 150+ clan wars.

Support, it makes no sense to win more points for the same thing with just a different label.

now soldier or some other lunatic comes and accuses me of lying with devil and poisoning the village well

A truly excellent idea.

I keep coming back again and again to this, but what is the purpose of games like this? It is to allow people to waste time in an enjoyable way. Subsidizing by using Strategy Points types of gameplay (in this case Clan Wars) which would otherwise not be as popular is completely absurd, because it subsidizes players to play types of games that they otherwise would not play, because it isn't as enjoyable. Sid, if Clan Wars require that bonus to remain popular and not be obsolete, it clearly isn't enjoyable enough for players to play it without the bonus.

Strategy Points absolutely should not be used to encourage certain types of gameplay over others. After all, think about why we decided to reduce roleplay maps' SP gain.

נכתב על ידי Eagle, 04.05.2015 at 03:01

נכתב על ידי Meester, 04.05.2015 at 02:52

נכתב על ידי Eagle, 04.05.2015 at 02:33

Dont do this, just no

If you have no argument against this or no reason to keep this I don't see why your opinion matters. After all you have benefited a lot from the 2x SP multiplier, and if you didn't stop play clan wars 9 days ago I am more than certain that you would top Ferluccini on the "Most Benefited List".

The reason why I down voted is because most of the competitive players, such as I, mostly play cw's and rarely some other games, maybe some duel from time to time. Basically 90% of our sp comes from cw's, on which we can all agree. So how can we compete in sp, with someone like KFF, when the time he shows up, he farms over 5k sp daily in scenarios.,, We play 1-2 cw's a day max, and I believe my record for sp in a cw was 9k sp, which I played for 48 turns against Mauzer. Regardless to that, I also believe that the x2 sp encourages lower ranks to play cw's, since in last year I can see that over 15 clans have been made and now are participating in cw's, and I believe one of the reasons they started to play cw's is the x2 sp.

Absurd. If you play 1~2 Clan Wars a day maximum, then that is your problem. Clan War SP should not get a bonus just because you can't be bothered to set up more than two games a day.
Furthermore, and I've said this in an earlier post (just above), SP bonuses absolutely should not be used to incentivize certain types of games (in this case Clan Wars) over others. If lower ranks play Clan Wars because they've been "encouraged" by the SP bonus, clearly they shouldn't play Clan Wars. If Clan Wars aren't fun enough to be played (by low ranks, in this case) without the SP bonus, it should not be played at all.

Why are you trying to make cws just like any other normal game?
Cw is.. a game in which players with similar or same skill meet and discus about who is prettier ! whatever...
Cws are the highest thing in competitive level, and i am pretty sure you should have some 'extra' price for wining cuzz its not the same to win in cw or to win in normal 3v3 game.
Dont touch cws !

נכתב על ידי Steve Aoki, 04.05.2015 at 03:32

Why are you trying to make cws just like any other normal game?
Cw is.. a game in which players with similar or same skill meet and discus about who is prettier ! whatever...
Cws are the highest thing in competitive level, and i am pretty sure you should have some 'extra' price for wining cuzz its not the same to win in cw or to win in normal 3v3 game.
Dont touch cws !

נכתב על ידי Steve Aoki, 04.05.2015 at 03:32

Why are you trying to make cws just like any other normal game?
Cw is.. a game in which players with similar or same skill meet and discus about who is prettier ! whatever...
Cws are the highest thing in competitive level, and i am pretty sure you should have some 'extra' price for wining cuzz its not the same to win in cw or to win in normal 3v3 game.
Dont touch cws !

Not sure if irrational or sarcastic.

I'm going to give this stranger a benefit of the doubt and believe sarcastic.

SUPPORT.everyone will be r13 next season and every new clan will be scared of our ranks

נכתב על ידי Steve Aoki, 04.05.2015 at 03:32

Why are you trying to make cws just like any other normal game?
Cw is.. a game in which players with similar or same skill meet and discus about who is prettier ! whatever...
Cws are the highest thing in competitive level, and i am pretty sure you should have some 'extra' price for wining cuzz its not the same to win in cw or to win in normal 3v3 game.
Dont touch cws !

Maybe the case when they are rare but now that they are common they are just like any other 3v3 game. I checked the game logs and over the past 30 days 40% of 3v3s were clan wars. If only I the log could display games statistics from months ago.

So yes clan wars might be deserving of a prize if they were special and not as common as they are now but if they are going to be a wide spread as they are now they are no different from any other game.

Besides your argument of "player with similar or same skill" no longer hold true, especially not in the past 2 months.

On a side note don't you find it funny how player who have the most to lose out of this are the only ones who are opposing the change?

1. there are pro's and con's to the idea but on the whole I don't think anyone plays clan wars just to farm sp

2. aren't hard to set up? i'm assuming the reason for the removal of the 2x sp would be cause of low ranks ranking up with clan wars, since I don't think it really matters for a rank 8 or 9+ as they got all they really need, so from a low ranks point of view (r0-7) it's near impossible to find a clan war against anyone willing to fight with similar ranks, I don't know about anyone else but when I did my 1st cw I think I was r6 and was terrified of possible loss I didn't care about sp but it does help give the player the experience and then the sp for them to get the upgrades "needed" for them to do other cw in future (needed being cause it's near impossible to play without faster inf and cheaper inf)

3. the 2x sp helps keep low ranks interested as if your a low rank and play your 1st cw without your faster or cheaper inf your going to get wrecked but you can't exclude someone from playing just cause of their rank how would you feel being in a clan and not being allowed to cw until ya r8 or whatever it would be disheartening so at least this helps them get there

4. I see farming as getting something without any effort anyone playing in a clan war would be trying their best as to not let their team down so would be playing as best they can, I don't see how someone trying their hardest is classified as farming

נכתב על ידי Meester, 04.05.2015 at 04:05

נכתב על ידי Steve Aoki, 04.05.2015 at 03:32

Why are you trying to make cws just like any other normal game?
Cw is.. a game in which players with similar or same skill meet and discus about who is prettier ! whatever...
Cws are the highest thing in competitive level, and i am pretty sure you should have some 'extra' price for wining cuzz its not the same to win in cw or to win in normal 3v3 game.
Dont touch cws !

Maybe the case when they are rare but now that they are common they are just like any other 3v3 game. I checked the game logs and over the past 30 days 40% of 3v3s were clan wars. If only I the log could display games statistics from months ago.

So yes clan wars might be deserving of a prize if they were special and not as common as they are now but if they are going to be a wide spread as they are now they are no different from any other game.

Besides your argument of "player with similar or same skill" no longer hold true, especially not in the past 2 months.

I am not talking about farming or any other shit happening in cws. Beside, you have farming in duels, farming in scenarios.. Farming will exsist always cuzz of suka players. I am more talking about.. hm.. Lets say like this, the lower/mid ranks pretty much enjoy in 2x sp. Upgrages ,ranking up, they have inspiration to play the cws. And what about higher ranks? expirienced players that have over 100 or 200 cws or more? They are going to lose interest in playing cws, because they played so much its fun anymore. I mean its still fun but you cant compare 200th cw and your first couple of. And sometimes, we need inspiration to continue playing clan wars (this has nothing with my cw vs cosa). For someone thats competence, for someone its sp, for someone else its elo... for some players its having fun and playing with your friends. So many things. And.. idk.. i am pretty sure that if the 2x sp got removed, some of those players will eventualy get bored while playing cws and thats not good for the game or anyone.

נכתב על ידי Exo-K, 04.05.2015 at 04:11

1. there are pro's and con's to the idea but on the whole I don't think anyone plays clan wars just to farm sp

2. aren't hard to set up? i'm assuming the reason for the removal of the 2x sp would be cause of low ranks ranking up with clan wars, since I don't think it really matters for a rank 8 or 9+ as they got all they really need, so from a low ranks point of view (r0-7) it's near impossible to find a clan war against anyone willing to fight with similar ranks, I don't know about anyone else but when I did my 1st cw I think I was r6 and was terrified of possible loss I didn't care about sp but it does help give the player the experience and then the sp for them to get the upgrades "needed" for them to do other cw in future (needed being cause it's near impossible to play without faster inf and cheaper inf)

3. the 2x sp helps keep low ranks interested as if your a low rank and play your 1st cw without your faster or cheaper inf your going to get wrecked but you can't exclude someone from playing just cause of their rank how would you feel being in a clan and not being allowed to cw until ya r8 or whatever it would be disheartening so at least this helps them get there

4. I see farming as getting something without any effort anyone playing in a clan war would be trying their best as to not let their team down so would be playing as best they can, I don't see how someone trying their hardest is classified as farming

1. No cons the 2x SP implemented have served its purpose and it is now time for it to go.

2. How many low ranks below rank 6 exactly do you see playing clan wars? Not many. You are forgetting that SP does play a role in the ranking system (players ranked by SP) and who doesn't want to be in the top 50 or have that sexy rank 13 symbol. If the answer is no one then you won't really mind losing the multiplier as you don't need the SP after all.

3. Like I said not many low ranks playing clan wars, but it is still wrong to encourage players to play certain games over others. If you are playing clan wars for the SP you are playing it for the wrong reason. We should not prioritize certain games over others, like we are doing now(nerf RP boost CW).

4. Your right. Removed from the OP.

נכתב על ידי Steve Aoki, 04.05.2015 at 04:18

נכתב על ידי Meester, 04.05.2015 at 04:05

נכתב על ידי Steve Aoki, 04.05.2015 at 03:32

Why are you trying to make cws just like any other normal game?
Cw is.. a game in which players with similar or same skill meet and discus about who is prettier ! whatever...
Cws are the highest thing in competitive level, and i am pretty sure you should have some 'extra' price for wining cuzz its not the same to win in cw or to win in normal 3v3 game.
Dont touch cws !

Maybe the case when they are rare but now that they are common they are just like any other 3v3 game. I checked the game logs and over the past 30 days 40% of 3v3s were clan wars. If only I the log could display games statistics from months ago.

So yes clan wars might be deserving of a prize if they were special and not as common as they are now but if they are going to be a wide spread as they are now they are no different from any other game.

Besides your argument of "player with similar or same skill" no longer hold true, especially not in the past 2 months.

I am not talking about farming or any other shit happening in cws. Beside, you have farming in duels, farming in scenarios.. Farming will exsist always cuzz of suka players. I am more talking about.. hm.. Lets say like this, the lower/mid ranks pretty much enjoy in 2x sp. Upgrages ,ranking up, they have inspiration to play the cws. And what about higher ranks? expirienced players that have over 100 or 200 cws or more? They are going to lose interest in playing cws, because they played so much its fun anymore. I mean its still fun but you cant compare 200th cw and your first couple of. And sometimes, we need inspiration to continue playing clan wars (this has nothing with my cw vs cosa). For someone thats competence, for someone its sp, for someone else its elo... for some players its having fun and playing with your friends. So many things. And.. idk.. i am pretty sure that if the 2x sp got removed, some of those players will eventualy get bored while playing cws and thats not good for the game or anyone.

Not sure If I fully understand what you said but yes farming will exist where ever you go and you can try and crack down on it as much as possible.
Furthermore we can not be prioritizing certain style of gamings over others. We nerfed RP because players were gaining lots of SP from it in a short amount of time, we boosted clan wars with the intention of encouraging player to take part in it. Now that it has reached its goal we can return to the normal multipliers if players are discouraged by this they are playing clan wars for the wrong reason and should just go play scenarios(you make more SP per turn there anyway). If its fun you want then you won't mind the multiplier being removed.

נכתב על ידי Exo-K, 04.05.2015 at 04:11

1. there are pro's and con's to the idea but on the whole I don't think anyone plays clan wars just to farm sp

2. aren't hard to set up? i'm assuming the reason for the removal of the 2x sp would be cause of low ranks ranking up with clan wars, since I don't think it really matters for a rank 8 or 9+ as they got all they really need, so from a low ranks point of view (r0-7) it's near impossible to find a clan war against anyone willing to fight with similar ranks, I don't know about anyone else but when I did my 1st cw I think I was r6 and was terrified of possible loss I didn't care about sp but it does help give the player the experience and then the sp for them to get the upgrades "needed" for them to do other cw in future (needed being cause it's near impossible to play without faster inf and cheaper inf)

3. the 2x sp helps keep low ranks interested as if your a low rank and play your 1st cw without your faster or cheaper inf your going to get wrecked but you can't exclude someone from playing just cause of their rank how would you feel being in a clan and not being allowed to cw until ya r8 or whatever it would be disheartening so at least this helps them get there

4. I see farming as getting something without any effort anyone playing in a clan war would be trying their best as to not let their team down so would be playing as best they can, I don't see how someone trying their hardest is classified as farming

Absurd.

1. Perhaps you're right. Not sure here, since I'm not a mind-reader.

2. They're not that hard to set up. If you think Clan Wars are hard to set up, I challenge you to get a 17-player scenario going at 07:00 UTC. By your logic, games played at odd hours should get an SP bonus. They don't. Ergo, Clan Wars shouldn't either on the basis of ease of play. Furthermore, if you think giving low ranks playing Clan Wars SP so they can get the upgrades to play more Clan Wars in the future, that argument is also clearly flawed. If that's the case, every game should yield +100% SP bonus so low ranks playing games can be better prepared for games in the future. I hope I don't need to explain why giving every game +100% SP is absurd.

3. If a player is not interested in Clan Wars without the SP bonus, clearly they shouldn't play Clan Wars. Blimey, how many times do I need to say this? Not to mention that if clans exclude low ranks from playing Clan Wars, that's their problem, not the system's.

4. By that logic, any game where anyone is trying their best should get SP bonuses. First, "trying their best" is ridiculous. It's a game. Of course you play to the best of your ability, team-mates or not. Second, if as you say players somehow manage to perform better if their are team members depending on them, then every team game should get bonus SP. Which, obviously, is going to then generate quite a bit of outrage with free-for-all players.

נכתב על ידי International, 04.05.2015 at 03:40

נכתב על ידי Steve Aoki, 04.05.2015 at 03:32

Why are you trying to make cws just like any other normal game?
Cw is.. a game in which players with similar or same skill meet and discus about who is prettier ! whatever...
Cws are the highest thing in competitive level, and i am pretty sure you should have some 'extra' price for wining cuzz its not the same to win in cw or to win in normal 3v3 game.
Dont touch cws !

Not sure if irrational or sarcastic.

I'm going to give this stranger a benefit of the doubt and believe sarcastic.

Im sorry who are you again?

נכתב על ידי Eagle, 04.05.2015 at 05:13

-snip-

I? I am just another player in AtWar's very rapidly expanding playerbase.

For me, I make nearly as much sp per hour if I play 3v3 or CW with bonus, a cw take easily 30min+ to set up and last around 30min when a 3v3 take 5min to setup and the game is 30min long.(+I still have to write a log after the cw)
And I am not talking about all the drama that come with setting up a cw.

It is definitely possible for a clan with a lot of rank 10, to make more sp per hour, but I really don't see why a rank 10 would like more sp.

It should be 1.5x sp

There are many cws, it's not something that rare that would need any incentive to be played. And if they seek a reward for playing it, they already have those trophies and their self-satisfaction. I don't think gaining more SP has anything to be with the competitive desire of playing cws. And if people play cws just cause they gain more SP they're just behaving like those RP noobs they talked about back when there was no SP multiplier.

Support Meester

נכתב על ידי Acquiesce, 04.05.2015 at 06:12

It should be 1.5x sp

Why stop at halving the bonus? Let's remove it!

Hurrah!

נכתב על ידי International, 04.05.2015 at 07:09

נכתב על ידי Acquiesce, 04.05.2015 at 06:12

It should be 1.5x sp

Why stop at halving the bonus? Let's remove it!

Hurrah!

Why are you even discussing in thread about clan wars and clan war SP multiper when you didnt play any one?

I am not playing RPs and I dont discuss about them, so please let that to the players who understand the matter and who are insider in CWs.
Ty

נכתב על ידי Meester, 03.05.2015 at 23:58

Please refrain from and suggestions you are not contributing to the discussion.

If you, want to get rid of the multiplier in my opinion you would have to also drop amounts made in scenarios, as I see it right now it's a healthy balance of difficulty, that's why it had a two x multiplier, maybe it does generate sp to fast, but so does scenarios, the two x multiplier is the only thing that keeps the competitive community ahead of scenario players, dome of which are just farmers, wh er n I get on my pc latter I have a few screen shots of two rank nines and one rank ten that have played basically nothing but rp (before sp nerf) and has been playing less then two months. I see this with other maps as well, you guys did a good job with the multipliers thus far, but only with the popular maps, if you get ride of the only thing keeping the competitive community competitive with the rest of the community in sp, your gonna hurt that part of the community. If anything asked Ivan if it would be to much work to add a 2x sp limit to clan wars, maybe like 10 2x multipliers per player per season. But I know that's work. Just an opinion of a old retired noob, who has been part of every community in atwar, from being a troll and world map player as a low rank to a scenario player rank 6+ to a map maker and competitive player 9+. I like to think I have some clue as to what most groups want but I might be wrong.

Edit:btw I support Acquisce idea, it's the best way of compromising in a delicate situation, because in my eyes all forms of atWar should have its sp half ed starting from clan wars at the top to lowly rp at t e bottom, bring back a sense of accomplishment to the game when you level up. To many low ranks doing what I did in two years in two months, more over you got people about to be rank 12 that's not good either it scares noobs.

Lol u should award players even more for playing cws its keeping this game alive ,and now u want to reduce spx2 ....u all are crazy ...