More activity =/= better competitive scene

DISCLAIMER:

***Clovis I have you ignored. I suggest all others follow the same so this thread does not self destruct***

We have had record breaking number of CWs this past year. But that is ruining the competitive scene.

A.) There is little to no cost in losing. There is an unlimited amount of CWs so there is always time to make up losses.

B.) Not very many quality players play 3v3 since more CWs can be played.

C.) There are less 3v3s nowadays because of point B. Nobody wants to play with non 3v3ers or new 3v3ers. Rank 8-9 3v3s usually reserved a place for top tier players to play their 3v3s. Due to scenario farmers jumping over to become 3v3ers and people only CWing and earning double sp for it, ranks have become inflated preventing a reservation being placed.

D.) Because of point C, the only place to actually play against quality players on a consistent basis is by CWing. CWs have essentially become a ranked 3v3 which has ruined the sport. CWs are now more "hey lets CW, we got this new rank 7 and a rank 9 who only played scenarios before so we can match your team" clans will scrap together any trio as long as it means a game so they don't just sit in the lobby bored.

E.) Since point A and D, CWs have become meaningless. Who cares if you lost. Who cares if you won. With a limited amount of CWs, each one is carefully planned and usually only played with top tier players which inspired every non-top tier player to become better. With no cost in losing, nobody takes any shame with them to help turn them into a better player. You're the reason why your clan lost one of only 10-20 games will have you carry a great burden. You're the reason why your clan lost a game where there are unlimited games? Well shit that's ok, there will be plenty more, just keep your head up.

CWs have essentially become the modern day 3v3. There is no competiveness. We adjusted the system to boast more activity but all of this 'activity' has just transferred all the 3v3 players to only playing CWs. CWs have become saturated and meaningless. No competitive sport can have meaningless games.

We might as well just rename the CW system the "clans ranked 3v3 section" and open up another lobby for something more competitive.

Blss

"I will ignore you, so I can repeat your argument".

- Fockmeeard.

נכתב על ידי Fockmeeard, 03.05.2015 at 20:14

DISCLAIMER:

***Clovis I have you ignored. I suggest all others follow the same so this thread does not self destruct***

We have had record breaking number of CWs this past year. But that is ruining the competitive scene.

A.) There is little to no cost in losing. There is an unlimited amount of CWs so there is always time to make up losses.
ST: Elo is lost and won...

B.) Not very many quality players play 3v3 since more CWs can be played.
STWhy would they, the system before was hindering clan war activity.

C.) There are less 3v3s nowadays because of point B. Nobody wants to play with non 3v3ers or new 3v3ers. Rank 8-9 3v3s usually reserved a place for top tier players to play their 3v3s. Due to scenario farmers jumping over to become 3v3ers and people only CWing and earning double sp for it, ranks have become inflated preventing a reservation being placed.
ST: New 3v3 players are good forthe game in my opinion

D.) Because of point C, the only place to actually play against quality players on a consistent basis is by CWing. CWs have essentially become a ranked 3v3 which has ruined the sport. CWs are now more "hey lets CW, we got this new rank 7 and a rank 9 who only played scenarios before so we can match your team" clans will scrap together any trio as long as it means a game so they don't just sit in the lobby bored.
ST: Surely it is better to have players in competitive games than any other? It means the standard of play will only increase.

E.) Since point A and D, CWs have become meaningless. Who cares if you lost. Who cares if you won. With a limited amount of CWs, each one is carefully planned and usually only played with top tier players which inspired every non-top tier player to become better. With no cost in losing, nobody takes any shame with them to help turn them into a better player. You're the reason why your clan lost one of only 10-20 games will have you carry a great burden. You're the reason why your clan lost a game where there are unlimited games? Well shit that's ok, there will be plenty more, just keep your head up.
ST: There is a heavy cost to losing, if MK or Cosa lose to a lower elo clan it takes 5 games to make up the difference.

CWs have essentially become the modern day 3v3. There is no competiveness. We adjusted the system to boast more activity but all of this 'activity' has just transferred all the 3v3 players to only playing CWs. CWs have become saturated and meaningless. No competitive sport can have meaningless games.
ST: All the games resemble some meaning because of the coalition table, the fact more players want to play in clan wars as opposed to 3v3 is good. If clans want to clan war then so be it.

We might as well just rename the CW system the "clans ranked 3v3 section" and open up another lobby for something more competitive.
Isnt that how it always been?

Lol, First:pls think if now was old system,no clan would play cw without high players in him,it means 1 cw max in 1 day for all atwar.
Second:you want rp cw or?
Third: If you want competetive,be for yourself,you have duel,what you have against clans that allow their r7s to play?
If they dont train,recruit and allow cw for newbies,old players will stop playing 1 by 1,no one will play this forever,and what then?no one plays cw couse your idiotic idea lol.
4th,Read first 3 before i write 5th xD
5th, Its idiotic to make 2 clan war lobies,3v3 is most played couse its fast to make,and not like all clans have players to play anything bigger in same time(we are asking for eurasia or world cw all days,couse in 19-24h(CET) we have a lot players online,but other clans couse they dont want to train newbies dont,like they are already started using your idea which is idiotic)
6th,Ima gonna like if we could play some Destoria/Dreamworld that are very balanced and competetive maps(grats to Chess and b0nker),but same old players that made 3v3 and 3v3 cw dont want to play that maps couse they dont know what META,what countries and other shits are for that maps,and im keeping that its ok,i like playing 3v3 eu+ cws.
7th, At the end, more activity on 3v3(only competetive playing) = competetive scene.
Next time mind before you make some shit topics.(if you cant mind,i will explain to you:
THIS ISNT MORE ACTIVITY WHEN 5CLANS PLAYED 300 CWS TOGETHER,ITS INACTIVITY,FULLY INACTIVITY,if it was 10-20 clans that played 400 together,it would be called more activity)
This isnt ruining theme,this is just truth,so mods pls lock this theme,its idiotic.

נכתב על ידי Sun Tsu, 03.05.2015 at 20:40

Hahahahaha,now clov can see shit that fock writed

נכתב על ידי Ferlucci1389, 03.05.2015 at 20:28

Blss

He meant bless i think

I completely agree with you. While this is being discussed I think we should be removing the 2x SP while the current system is being used.

I didnt read all this thread cuz im not stupid but i disagree with you about whatever you said

נכתב על ידי Meester, 03.05.2015 at 22:17

I completely agree with you. While this is being discussed I think we should be removing the 2x SP while the current system is being used.

Agree with who?
I have never seen Meester in a cw/3v3 or even in the clan war room, unless you have an alt and cw regularly with it how would you know?


And fockmeard has played 3 clan wars in one month, is he really the best to judge?

נכתב על ידי The Bastard, 03.05.2015 at 22:55

נכתב על ידי Meester, 03.05.2015 at 22:17

I completely agree with you. While this is being discussed I think we should be removing the 2x SP while the current system is being used.

Agree with who?
I have never seen Meester in a cw/3v3 or even in the clan war room, unless you have an alt how would you know?
*image*

And fockmeard has played 3 clan wars in one month, is he really the best to judge?

I agree with Fock of course.

How else would I know I can see the seasonal tables and I have seen the number of games in game. In fact I can easily pull up the games log and see for myself. It is rather obvious ever since infinite cws became a thing the number of 3v3 games in the main room have drastically decreased.

All of Fock's point hold true as well.

Fock may have only player 3 clan wars this season but so have you. Infact he has played 4.25x the number of clans wars you have played. So yes Fock has experienced the old system and the new system and is more than eligible to judge.

נכתב על ידי Meester, 03.05.2015 at 23:23

נכתב על ידי The Bastard, 03.05.2015 at 22:55

נכתב על ידי Meester, 03.05.2015 at 22:17

I completely agree with you. While this is being discussed I think we should be removing the 2x SP while the current system is being used.

Agree with who?
I have never seen Meester in a cw/3v3 or even in the clan war room, unless you have an alt how would you know?
*image*

And fockmeard has played 3 clan wars in one month, is he really the best to judge?

I agree with Fock of course.

How else would I know I can see the seasonal tables and I have seen the number of games in game. In fact I can easily pull up the games log and see for myself. It is rather obvious ever since infinite cws became a thing the number of 3v3 games in the main room have drastically decreased.

All of Fock's point hold true as well.

With a games cap, clans can be penalised for winning games as per the previous system. Focks first point that there is no penalty if a clan loses is none sense.Please explain how there is no penalty for a losing clan?

The previous system only encouraged clans to play their best players and the CW room was a graveyard. Maybe active clan war players are in a better position to draw any conclusions, as analysis can only determine so much.

Surely as a mod you should be promoting activity in clan wars, not trying to make it the elitist system we had before.

נכתב על ידי Meester, 03.05.2015 at 23:23

So yes Fock has experienced the old system and the new system and is more than eligible to judge.

I am sun tzu (alt), apologies for not making that clear, I have played 25 games this season and nearly 50 the season before.

נכתב על ידי The Bastard, 03.05.2015 at 23:34

With a games cap, clans can be penalised for winning games as per the previous system. Focks first point that there is no penalty if a clan loses is none sense.Please explain how there is no penalty for a losing clan?

The previous system only encouraged clans to play their best players and the CW room was a graveyard. Maybe active clan war players are in a better position to draw any conclusions, as analysis can only determine so much.

Surely as a mod you should be promoting activity in clan wars, not trying to make it the elitist system we had before.

When a clan loses in the current system it can always play more game to gain back the lost ELO. Where as in the old way when a clan loses it can be a great hit to their chance at the seasons trophy as you can only play a finite number of games to make up for the loss. Causing you to pick stronger coalition over weaker ones to gain a greater amount of "Clan Points(CP)" and hopefully have a shot at winning the season.

Sure the previous clan war only encouraged clans to play their best players, but atleast it encouraged player to get better and be one of the best players that their clan play.

Just because I am a mod doesn't mean I have the same opinion as competitive players/mods. I strongly believe the old clan war system though exploitable was more competitive than this one. Like the title of the thread suggest more activity doesn't mean a more competitive stage.

נכתב על ידי Meester, 04.05.2015 at 02:36

נכתב על ידי The Bastard, 03.05.2015 at 23:34

With a games cap, clans can be penalised for winning games as per the previous system. Focks first point that there is no penalty if a clan loses is none sense.Please explain how there is no penalty for a losing clan?

The previous system only encouraged clans to play their best players and the CW room was a graveyard. Maybe active clan war players are in a better position to draw any conclusions, as analysis can only determine so much.

Surely as a mod you should be promoting activity in clan wars, not trying to make it the elitist system we had before.

When a clan loses in the current system it can always play more game to gain back the lost ELO. Where as in the old way when a clan loses it can be a great hit to their chance at the seasons trophy as you can only play a finite number of games to make up for the loss. Causing you to pick stronger coalition over weaker ones to gain a greater amount of "Clan Points(CP)" and hopefully have a shot at winning the season.

Sure the previous clan war only encouraged clans to play their best players, but atleast it encouraged player to get better and be one of the best players that their clan play.

Just because I am a mod doesn't mean I have the same opinion as competitive players/mods. I strongly believe the old clan war system though exploitable was more competitive than this one. Like the title of the thread suggest more activity doesn't mean a more competitive stage.

so what does every other member that isn't "the best" in their clan do though, it stops them being able to clan war sure they can do normal 3v3's but lot less reason for the clan to bother using them for a clan war, at least this allows clans to come back and discourages clans from sitting and not clan warring for weeks

נכתב על ידי Meester, 03.05.2015 at 23:23

נכתב על ידי The Bastard, 03.05.2015 at 22:55

נכתב על ידי Meester, 03.05.2015 at 22:17

I completely agree with you. While this is being discussed I think we should be removing the 2x SP while the current system is being used.

Agree with who?
I have never seen Meester in a cw/3v3 or even in the clan war room, unless you have an alt how would you know?
*image*

And fockmeard has played 3 clan wars in one month, is he really the best to judge?

I agree with Fock of course.

How else would I know I can see the seasonal tables and I have seen the number of games in game. In fact I can easily pull up the games log and see for myself. It is rather obvious ever since infinite cws became a thing the number of 3v3 games in the main room have drastically decreased.

All of Fock's point hold true as well.

Fock may have only player 3 clan wars this season but so have you. Infact he has played 4.25x the number of clans wars you have played. So yes Fock has experienced the old system and the new system and is more than eligible to judge.

I am sorry to disagree with this. People don't specific cw because of the 2x SP. It is about all the new functions. Lets take for example the duels, you remember the days where non-duel 1v1's used to be the normal 1v1 rooms? Duels were 9 out of 10 times used in mid game mostly in europe or worldgames where people used to have alot of asked everybody for duel because they knew they could possibly win it. Same thing happened to CWS. People start caring more about trophies now, abut imago now rather than fun and just a couple hours to kill. I still somehow think all of this is the results of the ''make your own map era'' due this 90% of the worldgames aint played anymore. And believe me I am not shitting all over the ''make your own map era'' but got to face the facts this has kind of ruined the old style of aw. And yes we got like 80% more community but thats basically it.

To make a long story short, don't really blame the 2x sp or anything else, its the players who became more lazyness and ''omg worldgames take to long'', ''omg 3v3's aint worth my time'', or ''why would I do something without gaining anything, for example elo or CW elo, or a trophy (tournament)...

I dont really see a bright future in AW anymore since most of the oldplayers became sick and tired of this.

נכתב על ידי Exo-K, 04.05.2015 at 04:35

נכתב על ידי Meester, 04.05.2015 at 02:36

נכתב על ידי The Bastard, 03.05.2015 at 23:34

With a games cap, clans can be penalised for winning games as per the previous system. Focks first point that there is no penalty if a clan loses is none sense.Please explain how there is no penalty for a losing clan?

The previous system only encouraged clans to play their best players and the CW room was a graveyard. Maybe active clan war players are in a better position to draw any conclusions, as analysis can only determine so much.

Surely as a mod you should be promoting activity in clan wars, not trying to make it the elitist system we had before.

When a clan loses in the current system it can always play more game to gain back the lost ELO. Where as in the old way when a clan loses it can be a great hit to their chance at the seasons trophy as you can only play a finite number of games to make up for the loss. Causing you to pick stronger coalition over weaker ones to gain a greater amount of "Clan Points(CP)" and hopefully have a shot at winning the season.

Sure the previous clan war only encouraged clans to play their best players, but atleast it encouraged player to get better and be one of the best players that their clan play.

Just because I am a mod doesn't mean I have the same opinion as competitive players/mods. I strongly believe the old clan war system though exploitable was more competitive than this one. Like the title of the thread suggest more activity doesn't mean a more competitive stage.

so what does every other member that isn't "the best" in their clan do though, it stops them being able to clan war sure they can do normal 3v3's but lot less reason for the clan to bother using them for a clan war, at least this allows clans to come back and discourages clans from sitting and not clan warring for weeks

More clans should be made, and clans should not be made like 1 or 2 twices a month and then deleted the month after (death,rockstars,etc.) The clan rockstars for example had like 40 members. With 60% of it with competitive players and 40% of them not playing any single CW, because it was ''troll'' clan. These 40% players could make or join another clan so we would had more competitive clans!

I hope you or the leader of singularity isnt deleting it, because that would be a waste.

Thank you meester for helping explain my points.

Lets take a look at the culture a year ago.

There would be two types of 3v3s. A rank 6-7 3v3 and a rank 8-9 3v3. Lower ranks would learn and train in the lower level 3v3s. Top tiers would train in the upper level 3v3 since playing with low ranks wouldn't help them.

Ranks 8 were considered all right. Ranks 9 were considered really good. Rank 10s and above were considered gods. Now look at the field. Palve and commando as rank 9s, opi as rank 11. These ranks have become saturated with noobs. You can't make a 3v3 anymore and distinguish ranks to play with top tier people. Ranks have become inflated because of the 2x sp. Noob clans cw other noob clans and earn a shit ton of sp for it. The 2x sp was only to increase popularity so RP players would have incentive to play competitive games. It needs to be removed.

CWs were sacred. A loss would be devastating. It really forced everyone to do their best. People achieved their best by training in 3v3s.

Clans actually made inner 3v3s at one point. A rare occurance nowadays.

No matter what argument you have in support of the new system, why is it that any competitive sport has a set amount of games? Why is it different for us?

What if we added more seasons and made a set amount of games for each season with a tourny playoff at the end of each season to determine best clan? This in addition to cw elo.

נכתב על ידי Fockmeeard, 04.05.2015 at 07:06

Thank you meester for helping explain my points.

Lets take a look at the culture a year ago.

There would be two types of 3v3s. A rank 6-7 3v3 and a rank 8-9 3v3. Lower ranks would learn and train in the lower level 3v3s. Top tiers would train in the upper level 3v3 since playing with low ranks wouldn't help them.

Ranks 8 were considered all right. Ranks 9 were considered really good. Rank 10s and above were considered gods. Now look at the field. Palve and commando as rank 9s, opi as rank 11. These ranks have become saturated with noobs. You can't make a 3v3 anymore and distinguish ranks to play with top tier people. Ranks have become inflated because of the 2x sp. Noob clans cw other noob clans and earn a shit ton of sp for it. The 2x sp was only to increase popularity so RP players would have incentive to play competitive games. It needs to be removed.

CWs were sacred. A loss would be devastating. It really forced everyone to do their best. People achieved their best by training in 3v3s.

Clans actually made inner 3v3s at one point. A rare occurance nowadays.

No matter what argument you have in support of the new system, why is it that any competitive sport has a set amount of games? Why is it different for us?

What if we added more seasons and made a set amount of games for each season with a tourny playoff at the end of each season to determine best clan? This in addition to cw elo.

That would be awesome, because now the ''best clan'' is who just farms the most or plays the most LOL.

נכתב על ידי Fockmeeard, 04.05.2015 at 07:06

What if we added more seasons and made a set amount of games for each season with a tourny playoff at the end of each season to determine best clan? This in addition to cw elo.

I like this idea. But if it isn't supported by many and doesn't get implimented, i personally prefer the new system

נכתב על ידי Milkyy, 04.05.2015 at 08:04

נכתב על ידי Fockmeeard, 04.05.2015 at 07:06

What if we added more seasons and made a set amount of games for each season with a tourny playoff at the end of each season to determine best clan? This in addition to cw elo.

I like this idea. But if it isn't supported by many and doesn't get implimented, i personally prefer the new system

There would be no reason to not support this. The new system is not going away. We might as well just rename it "ranked 3v3s" and allow them to be played in the regular game lobby. Then my proposed system can take place in the CW room.

Anyways, lets give it 24 hours and hear the majorities opinion. Really looking for opinions of people like b0nk/acqui/desu/laochra and others like them.

נכתב על ידי Fockmeeard, 04.05.2015 at 08:36

נכתב על ידי Milkyy, 04.05.2015 at 08:04

נכתב על ידי Fockmeeard, 04.05.2015 at 07:06

What if we added more seasons and made a set amount of games for each season with a tourny playoff at the end of each season to determine best clan? This in addition to cw elo.

I like this idea. But if it isn't supported by many and doesn't get implimented, i personally prefer the new system

There would be no reason to not support this. The new system is not going away. We might as well just rename it "ranked 3v3s" and allow them to be played in the regular game lobby. Then my proposed system can take place in the CW room.

Anyways, lets give it 24 hours and hear the majorities opinion. Really looking for opinions of people like b0nk/acqui/desu/laochra and others like them.

There is no 'proposed system'.

Sorry Sun, i'll reply to your posts now. Was on mobile before so hard to reply to multiple of your comments.

My first point said "little to no cost in losing" meaning there is some cost but it is very minimal. You may need 5 games to make it up but you and MK make up the minority of those with this problem. Many other clans will only lose 3-11 elo and can win that back very easily with just 1-2 games.

The previous system did not include as many players as we do now. This is a growing community so it's natural that our population got bigger. A bunch of players didn't just say "wow the CW system changed so now I can go and become a 3v3 player like I always wanted to." The system also changed over time. First it was ten games. Then it was 20 and I believe at this point you could play as many games as you wanted but only the last 20 would count. This had a bigger risk in losing because if you had 5 games won in a row and lost your 6-10th games, you would have to win 5 straight like you did before and then you could begin replacing losses with wins. Was a very tedious challenge. Then it became last 30 count and now we have elo system. There really is no 'old system' just a bunch of modifications.

As for your point of credibility, I have been playing CWs almost twice as long as you have. I have CW'd a lot in every system. Does that mean I'm better than you? No. But I have more experience with the older systems so I have credibility to point out some of the good things that were replaced by the newer systems.

The CW system was not elite before. It was the best players but the best players for their rank. That's why asking for ranks were so important back then. Nobody brought forth their top 3 players each time. They would bring their best rank 6, their best rank 9, and their best rank 10 if those were the ranks the other team were playing. That also inspiried a lot of clans to recruit low ranks and train them to be very very good so that way if they were played, the other clan would be forced to play a rank 6 that may suck in comparison. I was used a lot as a rank 6 and 7 back when I was in evoL even though I had only trained a month or two I had the ability to win vs higher ranks. A team that could recruit a rank 6-7 that could cap a rank 9-10 was considered a God and a valuable asset to the clan and they were played very often. This also discouraged SP farming since everybody wanted to keep their rank low so they would be considered a good player for their rank. I remember almost getting a mod to take 15k SP away when I played UN prior to competing. I would have gone through with it if not for the need to get faster inf.

No, why would we change things again when finaly things got better?

נכתב על ידי Fockmeeard, 04.05.2015 at 07:06

Thank you meester for helping explain my points.

Lets take a look at the culture a year ago.

There would be two types of 3v3s. A rank 6-7 3v3 and a rank 8-9 3v3. Lower ranks would learn and train in the lower level 3v3s. Top tiers would train in the upper level 3v3 since playing with low ranks wouldn't help them.

Ranks 8 were considered all right. Ranks 9 were considered really good. Rank 10s and above were considered gods. Now look at the field. Palve and commando as rank 9s, opi as rank 11. These ranks have become saturated with noobs. You can't make a 3v3 anymore and distinguish ranks to play with top tier people. Ranks have become inflated because of the 2x sp. Noob clans cw other noob clans and earn a shit ton of sp for it. The 2x sp was only to increase popularity so RP players would have incentive to play competitive games. It needs to be removed.

CWs were sacred. A loss would be devastating. It really forced everyone to do their best. People achieved their best by training in 3v3s.

Clans actually made inner 3v3s at one point. A rare occurance nowadays.

No matter what argument you have in support of the new system, why is it that any competitive sport has a set amount of games? Why is it different for us?

What if we added more seasons and made a set amount of games for each season with a tourny playoff at the end of each season to determine best clan? This in addition to cw elo.

I hate to say it, but i am fairly sure that rank inflation is not due to x2 sp from cws.

נכתב על ידי Azula., 04.05.2015 at 13:40

No, why would we change things again when finaly things got better?

Cose sm cant be in the top

נכתב על ידי Azula., 04.05.2015 at 13:40

No, why would we change things again when finaly things got better?

Well, if things can get even better than they are, why not changing it again?